Episode 22

Mark-John Clifford of ADHD! It's All Mishegoss & More

This week, I sit down with Mark-John Clifford of ADHD! It's All Mishegoss & More, an unedited, unscripted, & refreshingly real show about living with ADHD.

Topics up for discussion this week include:

  • how he was first diagnosed with ADHD
  • why he's not a fan of "gurus" selling cures for ADHD
  • why he won't charge for his podcast, and instead offer his advice for free
  • why his podcast doesn't have a predetermined format
  • how his public speaking never leans on notes
  • how his show has evolved over the last three years
  • why he won't release episodes 7 days a week
  • how he uses his podcast as a brain dump for his thoughts
  • why motivational speakers and podcasters should be taken with a pinch of salt
  • why he loathes people who try to compartmentalize medical condition
  • why we need to follow advice that's specific to us
  • how he has one of the highest scores on the ADHD scale
  • why his pet peeve are speakers peddling the same shtick and hustle
  • how Jim Rohn gave him the best piece of advice regarding motivation
  • how his podcast is therapy for him
  • how his life took a turn for the worse and led to a prison sentence
  • how his time in prison humbled him and made him appreciate the little things in life
  • how his story is being talked about as a mini-series for TV
  • why people complaining about the Covid lockdown don't know what a real lockdown is like
  • why he'd like to make his next podcast about his time in prison and the people he met
  • how prison can give you a chance to reinvest in yourself
  • why prison doesn't define a person
  • how a car accident one September morning in 2001 saved his life

Settle back for an honest and vivid inside look into the life of someone who made mistakes, and hasn't let them define him.

Connect with Mark:

Contact me: danny@podcasterstories.com

My equipment:

Recommended resources:



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Transcript
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They were offering them five years. And my lawyer said,

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you know, if you work, we can work this out.

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You could take his place. So what I did is

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I confessed to doing a lot of things, which I

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had done, and the agreement was I would get five

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years and take my uncle's place and they will come

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after me. Well, they decided that five years wasn't enough.

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The judge made a decision that there was more to

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me than that. The I everything she thought and read

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about from the FBI.

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Hi, and welcome to Podcaster. Stories each episode we'll have

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a conversation with podcasters from across the globe and share

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their story. What motivates them, why they started to show

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how they grew in the show and more will also

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talk about that personal license and some of the things

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that have happened in the mid damn the person you

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are today. And now here's your host. Danny Brown welcome

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to Podcaster. Stories where we meet the people behind the

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voices of the show. As we listen to this week,

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I'm talking with Mark John Clifford who, along with his

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wife, Patty is a co-host of ADHD, all Michigan. And

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More a show that discusses what its like living with

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H ADHD. And I said that wrong. So I apologize

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for that. Mark. I'll show you the correct me a

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few times in the shot.

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So Mark, welcome to Podcaster Stories how about you? Tell

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us about yourself and the podcast.

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Okay. Thanks. Danny the podcast started three years ago and

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it started, it was titled its all Mishegoss and that

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was all about basically how to talk about life. We

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talk about business, things that go on and we talked

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to politics, religion, EV we covered everything we can think

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of Andy. What happened was I was originally diagnosed with

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ADHD when I was six years old. I'm 66. Now

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I've lived with this thing for 60 years and I

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used to be afraid to talk about it because when

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I was a kid ADHD, wasn't called it was called

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hyperkinetic disorder.

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And I was over that. I was like out of

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the spectrum, they said I broke the bell curve when

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they first diagnosed me. And it used to be that

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it was something that people or teachers would think that

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you have a mental problem, mental, a handicap. They didn't

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understand that ADHD is just a person that deals with

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a lot of things happening fast. And instead they would

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put me in special classes thinking that I was slow

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and because I would fail at everything because it wasn't

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challenging enough. And finally, through my mom who fought different

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programs in different teacher's they finally realized what I needed

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was to be thrown into something that push the envelope

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so that my mind would be working harder and faster.

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Even if I didn't do that well, we are still

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more challenging and it kept my interest. And so over

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the years, I really hid the fact that I had

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ADHD. And what happened was about, I say to years

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ago, throw in three years ago, I get interviewed by

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a gentleman named Peter Shankman, who has a podcast called

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faster than normal and its all about ADHD. And I've

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known Peter for years and he questioned my whole thing.

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And I told them, I just have been a, not

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ashamed of it, but never wanted the brag about that.

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I had ADHD, let people figure out why I'm crazy,

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you know, and then try to sort it out. And

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a, so he's the one who got me to really

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think about changing the podcast and turning it over to

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All ADHD and talk more about it and told him

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about my life.

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Because a lot of what he and I talked about

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was I was a prisoner in a federal prison system

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for 10 years and being locked up in a eight

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by 10 cubical with ADHD. It's not exactly the best

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thing for a person with ADHD. So I reminisce a

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lot about what I went through and when I get

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on the show, but the original thought of the show

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was about doing interviews with everybody. But there's a lot

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of shows doing that with ADHD. So what I wanted

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to do was make it interesting where people, you know,

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like people think there's all these experts out there. And

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I kind of have always had this attitude about an

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expert's is you're an expert for an hour because within

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an hour, something is going to change in your field

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and you get up, you got to learn it again.

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And so you're not you not always an expert. And

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I read and follow and listen to all these podcasts

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and people that are bragging out there about, they have

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the best trick, the best, best trick to get, get

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around your ADHD. And this is the best way to

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do something. And the thing is what I've always learned.

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And what I talk to people is what I do

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and how I use it. Isn't gonna necessarily work for

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you or for anyone else because we don't have the

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same DNA. So I can tell you that this is

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the best, the best way to overcome ADHD on a

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rainy day, but it's not going to work for you.

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So when I started the podcast, I started thinking, I'm

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going to make this a very personal podcast and talk

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about me and lessons that I've learned over the years

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and how I go around certain things, but not as

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an expert, but just as a person that's had to

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live with this for 60 years.

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And hopefully by them listening or listeners hearing what I

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have to say, that they can try different things. They

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can learn like what the struggles are. And if what

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I do helps them, that's great. If it doesn't, then

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it might give them the, the, the initial stage to

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look what helps them. And I find people that are

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just like last, because they just got diagnosed with ADHD

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and they think it's the end of the world. And

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I tell them, look, this is like in star Wars.

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This is the force. You know, if Peter, Peter, Peter

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Shankman says, it's a gift. And I say, it's the

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fourth because when you have ADHD, you can accomplish so

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much. If you will allow it into your system and

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you will, and you accept it and don't fight it.

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I mean, you know, you're going to have bad days.

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You're going to have, you know, that just happens with

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ADHD. But you know, I, I have, you know, I

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always tell like Patty has got ADHD also, and she's

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had it for about 30 years. And they're like, I

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tell people, you know, we got 90 years between the

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two of us are of living with this thing. I

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think he could learn something for me, you know, I,

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you know, and that's that kind of the way that

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the podcasts started changing that I changed the name, but

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I look at ADA having ADHD. It is like Mishegoss,

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which is mad. You know, it's Yiddish for mad, crazy

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and insane and Sydney. And that's what it's like, because

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there's some days that are like thinking of a, like,

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when I get up in the morning is when I

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decided what I'm going to talk about.

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I do the podcast five days a week. I never

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have anything planned. I don't have any script. I wake

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up in the morning and whatever triggered me during the

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night I did or something I see on Twitter. That's

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what I ended up talking about on the show. And

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we go for eight minutes, Usually, you know, maybe nine,

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but very rarely do I go over eight minutes, but

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it's always something that's relative to life or business. And

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like I said, there's no script. There's no nothing. I

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just jumped on board and I've been asked for how

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do you do that? And I said, I don't know.

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It just comes. That's the ADHD, that's the, that's the

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forest. It just lets me to start talking. And I

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just came up with something, you know, we talk about,

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you know, the other day was about anger and I

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just went right into it.

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What about anger? And the, you know, like Patty is

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always like, she'll listen to the show and she'll want

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to know what are you going to talk about today?

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Or where are you going to talk to me? I

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don't know until I turn the microphone on, you know?

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And I w you know, that's what happens is that

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it comes, or if I get an email from a

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listener that says they have an, an issue with this,

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and that will be the next thing I talk about.

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Do you find that, so obviously you mentioned that you

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don't really have a plan or like podcasters planet, what

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the content is going to look like. Right. You know,

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what topics you want to cover? Maybe we put some

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bullet points in an, obviously you don't do that now.

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Do you feel that, do you feel you could do

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that? Because obviously, I mean, we've been on our show

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or a show up, maybe its easier to just call

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up organically with a floor there. Or do you find

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that it would be easier in a long time? What

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would you still probably do it off the cuff of?

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Can you think

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That's the problem I have with notes or bullet points

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or is it confuses? I didn't know how to explain.

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This is my, the way my ADHD, H D H

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D D brain works is if I see bullet points,

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I get confused about what I want to talk about.

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And it comes back to years ago when they used

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to ask me to speak someplace or whatever, they'd say,

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you know, we'd like you to talk about this topic,

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I'd say, OK. You know, and then I'd read about

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it or whatever, and I'd get up there and just

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start talking. And I will always make my talk at

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a conversation. Like I wanted to get people involved in

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motivated to, to tune in. And it was really funny.

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Cause two years ago I get asked to speak at

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a, the annual convention of a nurse practitioners, Colorado.

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And I was the guest speaker and they gave me

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this whole script that they wanted me to follow. And

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I've been in the night before and them talking and

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I'm talking too, the people, the nurse practitioner that are

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putting this on and he said, here's your script. Then

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they hand me the six page script. And I said,

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I can't, I can't do this. It's not me. That's

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not my words. That's not the way I talk. And

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they said, well, we have a certain way. You have

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to follow him. We want certain information. I said, I'll

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get all your bullet points out. And I said, but

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let me do my thing. So I got up in

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front of 500 people and just started speaking and sooner

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or later I got to the bullet points, but I

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had the audience Rowling because I was talking about my

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own issues with diabetes and ADHD.

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And I was very personal. I gave him my numbers.

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I gave me everything about my medical history. And every

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one after the show came up and was like, we'd

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never had anyone do that. Talk about themselves. And so

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the, and the people were happy and I said, see,

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you don't need to follow a script, but there's other

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people that need bullet points or we need a script.

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And I think it's my brain is that I can't

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sit down and put a pad in front of me

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with bullet points because I've tried it. And all I

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ended up doing is messing the podcast up. So I,

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I just get up and, and its funny because sometimes

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I don't even have a topic that I'm thinking about.

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I go to the computer and I will sit there

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and I'll say, what am I gonna talk about today?

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And I'll say, okay, so let me get going. And

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something new will come in and they start to show,

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I stopped talking about whatever may be some of the

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past shows and bringing it up, you know, did you

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listen to this? Or did you find that to Andrea?

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And then all of a sudden something will click and

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my brain, this is what we needed to talk about.

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And then I'll run with it and I'll go on

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for eight minutes with no and I don't have a

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dead spot. Do any dead spots I have is one

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of the dogs are bothered me to go out or

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you know, do something and it works perfect. So I

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don't know, I don't think I'll ever go to a

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bullet points because I'm afraid of them.

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And, and, and that takes us back to the, you

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mentioned your show has been going since 2017, right? And

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I think that ties in with your newsletters, but at

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the same time, the Mishegoss the newsletter. So how has

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that evolved and all the episodes and they were more

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weakly or are spread out in the early days, whereas

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no, I believe it was daily that you are doing

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the show now.

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So the podcast is Monday through Friday. Sometimes I kick

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in on a weekend. If I'm a good something to

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say there's no. So I do it whenever. I feel

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like if I get up the first thing in the

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morning and I get the urge to go, I go

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at it. If it's later in a day, I do

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it that I don't have a scheduled time. It just

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goes out that I was gonna say in the newsletter

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goes out three days a week on Tuesday, Thursday and

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Sunday. So that's more structured.

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And is that, did that evolution happened organically or did

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you make a decision? I need to do this daily

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or now I want to do this deal to, to,

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to get all my thoughts out there are so to

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speak.

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If it came down, it was my way of dealing

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with the reason I go daily. I could, I mean,

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to be honest, I'd like to go to seven days

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a week and I figured people get sick and hearing

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it. It's it's it's because I've got, this is where

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the ADHD is. Mind boggling is I get so many

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thoughts going, if I don't release them, they get lost

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in the shuffle and they go on to never, never

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land. You know, when people say, well, why don't you

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write things down and I've done it. Like, again, going

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back to the, not writing bullet points, but even in

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writing ideas down, I've done that. I've tried doing the,

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I tried doing the daily journals. None of that works

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to me because when I start writing, my mind starts

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running and I can't write fast enough to keep our

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type fast enough to keep up with what my brain

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is doing.

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So the idea that the podcast is, it helps me

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get rid of all like a basic it's like a

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brain dump. That's what I call it. I get up

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in the morning and be able to dump it in

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my brain. And then I got the rest of the

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day to work on other stuff and it might be

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the newsletter or whatever, but I find that podcasting is

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the Avenue that people really tune into, you know, compared

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to doing a newsletter. When I see the readership and

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then I go to a podcast and I see the

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listenership, you know, and, and I'm not, I'm not doing

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big, big numbers, like some other people, but I don't,

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what I care about is, you know, it was always,

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and I think you were one of the ones that

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told me way back when, and when I started blogging

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and we talked was that it's, it's that one person

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you reach that makes the difference.

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It's not, you don't need to have 5,000 readers. You

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need one that will pay a T you know, Lauren's

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from what you've done. It, you should be happy with

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that. You don't charge for like a lot of other

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podcasters do. I'm the one thing I have been criticized

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about, I guess, for a, kind of have some of

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these other podcasts, others that are in the ADHD field,

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that our selling their services. I kinda get like against

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that. Okay. I, I know you, you should get paid

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for stuff, but what they're doing is selling their tips,

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their tricks. There are books that are supposedly going to

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help you. They don't, it's like Tony Robbins, Tony Robins

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is a great motivational speaker, but half of the stuff

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he teaches somebody's will never work for that person.

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Like we were told that like the DNA just isn't

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the same. And I was one, I said, I used

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to send my stockbrokers to a Tony Robbins seminars and

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spend all this money on his tapes and the CDs

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and all that back in my days, it was only

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tape. So we didn't have CDs yet. So I'd send

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my brokers there and they'd come back and they'd be

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all pumped up. And like, they'd be going out selling

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like crazy. And like six to eight weeks later, they

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couldn't do anything anymore because it only works for so

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long. And then you need to be refueled again. So

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I had written a book way back then about trying

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to get people to learn what motivates them themselves by

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listening to others.

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But hopefully that would give them the key to find

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what they needed. And that's what this podcast ADHD is

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about. It is. I'm giving you information that I've lived

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with for 60 years, if it helps you. That's fantastic.

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If it doesn't, I apologize, but that's what I've been

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through with this thing.

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Yeah. And it's funny, my one of my previous guests,

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Michael Levin, he suffered a heart attack in 2009. It

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was like a mega of heart attack. Right. And completely

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change his life and try to recover from that. He

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had to, you know, obviously change his lifestyle, change what

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he was eating and drink and et cetera. And a

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lot of people we'll give them the advice that you

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should do this. She should do that. Right. And he

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found that was only after that. He went to a

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nutritionist that he actually realized I'm being eaten wrong for

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my body. He'd been hit unhelpfully, but he'd been eating

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the wrong for his body and drinking the wrong stuff

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for his body and his needs. And I think that

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goes to your point. Exactly. I'm about everyone is different

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with different requirements. So when you see people selling, you

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know, the, the best advice for ADHD sufferers, you think

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can Well maybe for the ones that suffer the same

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way you do, as opposed to the 90% they suffer

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in another way or a 15% at all for this

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way.

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You know, when I spoke to the nurse practitioners, I

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said my biggest thing in go ahead and do it

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in to see a doctor or a nurse practitioner is

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when they think I'm, I'm the guy that's in their

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book. I'm not that book. I'm not that patient. I'm,

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I'm, Mark, I'm totally different than what you're reading about.

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You know? And, and they look at me when I

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tell the doctor that I said, look, you don't understand

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that. I said, I don't follow that rule of thumb.

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You know, it was what, three years ago, I weighed

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almost 300 pounds. I was at two 98 and the

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doctors, my cardiologist, he was giving me a lot of

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stuff that I need to use late at night. And

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I don't like diets. I think that's a four-letter word.

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Right. And so I happened to, to watch, how have

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you ever heard a Dean Ornish? Is that the Dino?

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Okay. He's, he's a heart specialist, but he or she

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is on YouTube, not on YouTube or I should say,

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but he has videos and he has a website, great

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website. I started watching some of his videos and it

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was one video that talked about not dieting for people

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who don't like to diet. And he basically said, this

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is real simple. He goes, watch what you eat, enjoy

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the food because everyone wants, it has to give up,

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like all of a sudden your doctor tells you, you

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gotta give up pasta. I'm Cecelia. You think I'm gonna

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give them a pasta. Okay. Or being told you need

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to make your meatballs with Turkey meat. I don't think

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so. Okay. I was just seeing, you know, my grandmother

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would roll over in their grave if she saw that.

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So when I saw this video, is it all made

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sense to me? Was that he would you like, but

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he, less of everything started cutting back, cutting back. But

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don't, and it was amazing because he said this, he

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goes to, everyone goes to, okay, use a little bit,

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a little smaller plate. And he said, that's the worst

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thing to do because you don't see what you've accomplished.

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If you have a big plate and you stuff on

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the plate, you can actually say, look, I love stuff

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on my plate. I need a full, you know, half

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a pound or a pasta and you get a quarter

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pounder. But since I started doing, I follow his routine,

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I said, let me see if this works, I lost

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a a hundred pounds. And I'm like, okay. I got

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down to a nice week that I liked. And then

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just a week ago, I went to a new doctor

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who basically said I needed to lose more weight.

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And I said, I feel good at this weight, she

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goes, no, I want you to lose more weight. Then

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she said, you got to cut out all your carbs

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bread. And she started listening to him and he said,

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I don't think you understand my system. I said, I

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have a very good health system. It works for me,

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but it was the same one. You know, I went,

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I think it was about four years ago. I was

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seeing a therapist and she said, I want you to

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meet with this, the psychiatrist. And they wanted to test

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me for ADHD because I told them, look, I have

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been tested numerous times as they said, no, no, no.

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We will. You know, your old, a knowledge check you.

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And they had me do a test and I scored

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a 99.9% on their tests.

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And they will say that it's the highest state have

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ever seen in their office. And they said, how do

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you function everyday? Because you are basically, you're a non

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Your hyperkinetic disorder, which was the original title still is

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lingering around the world for people that are very severely

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ADHD. And that's what he was saying. He goes, I

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don't see how you can even function with all of

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the notepad. You didn't have a notepad in front of

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you all the time to make. I said, I can't

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do that. I said, because if I start writing, I'll

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write 50 pages about one thing that, and a half

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of it will be a mess because I couldn't remember

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where I wanted to go. And that was one of

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my issues with blogging was I started to write and

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I just start writing and I follow a certain path.

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And then all of a sudden, you'd see this story

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goes that something else. And then it'd come back to

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where I was. And then it would go to something

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else. And people will say, you are you blogging? Who

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is confusing? And that she said, well, I tell you

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the story. You, it would work better. All right, you

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guys want me to write it? It doesn't work that

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way for me, you know, I have to speak. Now

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I can kind of stay on course. And, but that's

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what its been like with ADHD. When I see these

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guys out there that are gurus or experts and they

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sell like, okay, we'll coach you with ADHD for $3,000

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for six months. I'm like, I'd like to do that

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too. But I can't do that to a person because

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I came coach you. But what I'm telling you is

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what works for me.

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And you have to take that information and recycle it

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to make it work for you. And that's where I

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feel that it's wrong. This charge for that because I'm

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not giving them, you know, I don't consider what I'm

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gonna give somebody. It's got to work for them. They

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need to take it and write rework it. So why

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charge them for that? You know, if it was, yeah,

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it was like in diabetes, we did the same thing

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and we would talk to people. We would help people.

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We never charged him for it. You know, he called

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these other sites with charge, give us donations, give us

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this, you know, give us $50 a month, whatever, and

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we'll do this. Or it, it never seemed to work

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because you're way of doing it is totally different than

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what they need. So I kind of get upset when

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I see these guys out there being gurus and so

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on and you know, selling, this is the way that,

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I mean, my, my biggest nemesis is Gary V I'd

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always go after Gary V because he wants to sell

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the hustle.

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And I'm like, isn't that a little old now?

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Yeah. Yeah. But it was good when he came over

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here and start a two, 365 is on the night

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when he first started wine TV et cetera. But I

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think to your point, I know I used to, I

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can sort of follow along like the social media, a

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circle way back in 20 2008, 2010. And then you

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saw the same people wear the same stick at every

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single Keno. And you are thinking you have been pushing

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us all like four or five or six years now

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when you move on, you know, it's just sad.

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Yeah. Like I think he's good. He's a great speaker.

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And he gets you pumped up. But he said he

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was selling the same stuff all the time, the hustle.

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And you know, there's a lot of young guys out

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there that believe in that and they go after it

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and he said, yeah, I'm gonna be a, you know,

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I'm gonna follow Gary V he's got a gazillion followers.

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And he speaks all over the place. You write your

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book. Right. So a bunch of books and there's nothing

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wrong. I don't, I don't disagree. I just think that

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sometimes it's too far, it's, you know, you're not in

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that. You can, you're not an expert because there's another

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guy that's doing it at the same way. You know,

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Jim Roan, who was a Tony Robbins first, or, you

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know, that was his guy. I met Jim Rowan at

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a conference one time.

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It was really funny. We, we, we talked afterwards and

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I asked him about his system for motivation. And he

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says, look, I get up there. And I give you

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what I believe in because what you do with it,

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it's up to you. I said, yes, but you charge

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for that. He goes, right. He goes, because I'm spending

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my time doing that. And he goes, but I don't

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guarantee that my system works. All I tell you is

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this is what is the, what its done for me.

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The way I do it. He goes, they have to

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take it and go to the next step because I

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can't guarantee anything. And I always knew, I liked that

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about him. And he was very honest. He says, I

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can't, I can't sell you a motivation.

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I can tell you motivation. I can show you motivation.

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But what I have, if you don't take it and

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use it to build, like, that's your building block, then

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you're not going to pass or you're not going to

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make it over the years. That's what I do. You

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know, I see that like now, especially with ADHD, I

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said, there is a lot more podcasts coming out. There's

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a lot more people writing about it. And all I

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have here is from people saying, Oh, well so-and-so charge

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me $3,000 for six months of coaching and it didn't

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do any good. And I said, well, that's too bad.

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You lost $3,000. I said, you know, what's a good

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one. Why do you think its going to do you

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any good? You know? But the price is right. You

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know, it sounds expensive. It's Oh it must work because

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they charge you $3,000.

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So I kinda, I, I do the show that, you

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know, what are not selling you anything. We were just

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telling him, I do it as a personal, you know,

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it's more therapy for me because I get to talk

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about issues I'm having, I've kind of made the show.

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You know, I don't like to talk ADHD every day

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because I think people get tired of hearing. So I

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make the show kind of a loose, like they'll be

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ADHD moments. There'll be things about life. They'll be things

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about kids, parenting, grandparenting, homeschooling, but it all ties into

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what its like to have ADHD do all this stuff.

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You know? So it's it's this is what normal life

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is like, you know, when you have 66th and you

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have those, this is what it's like.

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You know, you got something to look for.

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Awesome. Awesome. Is that it's not bad enough for the

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kids to drive middle, to be where they are homeschooled

Speaker:

at the moment. And that you'd mentioned that a lot

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of speaking about life, you had mentioned earlier there in

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a previous life that you like, you'd be in on

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an investment banker and you had stock brokers work, et

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cetera. And then you took a little bit of a

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turn on your last legal profession. So what, what happened

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to that?

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Okay. I was an investment banker for 19 years. And

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what happened was I had an uncle who was involved

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in a, a fraud scheme in Washington, DC bank bank

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in front of is called the BCCI and his bank

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had been not a Saudi Arabia, a S had a,

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a 140 locations throughout the world. And what happened was

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there was a big scandal, a fraud in Washington where

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my uncle and his law partner were buying the bank.

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And what happened was this BCCI bank was part of

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the money coming into that bank. So it became a

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major investigation. Well, what happened was the BCCI originally basically

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was a main bank for drug dealers, arms dealers, the

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CIA, the mafia, all these groups use that bank for

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doing their money laundering and all that.

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Well, I was a consultant to my uncle in helping

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form the new bank and all this. And I never

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got, I never got recorded, but he did with his

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law partner and everything else. And they were about two.

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They invited him, they invited all these other people. And

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the banker, the main banker out of London, went to

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prison. The Sheik who is behind a lot of this,

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never went to prison. He stayed in Saudi Arabia. I

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never came out and the, his law part or get

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acquitted, but they really want it to bury my uncle

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because they needed someone in the States. So they were

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offering them five years. And my lawyer said, you know,

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if you weren't, we could work this out.

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You could take his place. So what I did is

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I confess to do in a lot of things, which

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I had done and the agreement was I would get

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five years and take my uncle's place. And they would

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come after me. Well, they decided that five years wasn't

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enough. The judge made a decision that there was more

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to me than that, the eye. And she was, I

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mean, lets be honest I'll since I went away, everything

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she thought and read about from the FBI was true.

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So she decided to give me 10 years. So I

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got sentenced to 10 years. I ended up doing almost

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a total of 10 years because of bad behavior. I

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also took a little time out to my mom, passed

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away in 2000 while I was locked up.

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So just before she died, I got out of here

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on appeal bond and I've got to be home with

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their, for 10 days before she passed away. And I

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was on an ankle bracelet and I was determined not

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to go back to prison. So I cut the bracelet

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off, go to New York city. She took a bus

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from New York to Seattle, got to Seattle. And I

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had some friends in British Columbia in Vancouver who were

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planning my escape. And I escaped from Seattle. I went

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across the Bay into, I think it's white rock I'm

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in Vancouver, just outside of Vancouver. And as we were

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crossing the Bei, the boat broke down, he got caught

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and kelp and we had to dive into water and

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cut all of a kelp off the prop so we

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can continue across the bag.

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And I lived in Canada for six months while I

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was waiting for the, the CFD appeal was gonna do

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anything. And, but then they had me out on an

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escape charge cause I took off. So they denied the

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appeal right away and I had to make arrangements to

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come home. So I came back, finished my time and

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they ended up having to do pretty much I did,

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I should have done eat. And a half years I

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did nine and a half years old total. And you

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know, that's a totally different, I mean you want to

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talk about a humbling experience that changed my whole life.

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I have to be honest as an investment banker, I

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was young. I was caught up in T I a

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M I had power that I couldn't believe.

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I mean, it wasn't about money. It was about having

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power and being able to tell bankers what to do

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and how to do things. And right now I can

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tell you this officially, because it's been talked about, and

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I have the agreement, this is a screenwriter out of

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LA who approached me about four months ago. And they're

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starting the first year to starting to write a screenplay

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about my life and is presenting. It has been presented

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to Netflix who is talking about doing a, an eight

Speaker:

part series. It's also been presented to Amazon prime. So

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they're negotiating all of that right now. And it's all

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official because there's a lot to this, which was probably

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another podcast.

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I'll take up a whole different type of podcast, but

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I've never done a podcast about it. I've always thought

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about it. I'd I had some guy's approach me about

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doing the podcast about being in prison for 10 years.

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That never happened. But I always wanted to do something

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about talking about the, the, the, the I've I've listened

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to some of the prison podcast that are out there

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and it's one out of San Quentin. That's excellent. But

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they, I always, instead of telling him about prison life,

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I thought it'd be interesting to tell people about some

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of the characters that I met over 10 years, but

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the thing was, you know, I don't have to talk

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to you, but you could tell us some great stories

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about what it was like, you know, to be with

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some different types of people, you know?

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So, but that's how my life changes and it changed

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everything I believed in. It changed everything, how I dealt

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with life in general. But after 10 years it was

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like a being thankful for a role of toilet paper.

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It was the biggest thing, you know, that I could

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be thankful for. Jim when the coronavirus hit and there

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was no toilet paper. I was freaking out.

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I was just going to say that it's like why,

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as soon as you mention that, I was thinking immediately,

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there are leaks at March, April time when they're there

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was no title or role anywhere.

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Oh yeah, yeah. And you know, in prison, what it

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is these later, the first, when I first went in,

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they gave you a toilet paper, but towards the end,

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they will only give you one roll a week and

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people would fight and they'd steal your roll of toilet

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paper. So I have used to have to take the

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toilet paper and that would keep the, the cardboard cutouts

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or from other roles in a separate one roll into

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like five rolls in Hi it in myself. And can

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you remember one time going into the men's room? And

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I put the toilet paper on the floor and someone

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reached under, grabbed it and took off. So when we

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ran out of toilet paper this year, I was worried.

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It's like, I tell them, I tell Patty, it's a

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big joke around the house with the kids. And I

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said, toilet paper is more important than food.

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You know, I read more about that than anything. Yeah.

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We don't have food. Don't worry about, we need toilet

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paper that that's more important. And they all laugh at

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me, you know? And, and, and it's kind of a

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joke around the house. 'cause, I'm so worried about toilet

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paper in a row. And this is again to kind

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of, first of all, like I even comped the sheets.

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I get, I count the sheets when I take it

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off the roll, you know, and Patty like Patty wasn't,

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you know, she met me and I had just gotten

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out of prison. And the first time she saw me

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counting the sheets, she was like, what are you doing?

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Because I was very neat, you know? And I said,

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look, I said, I have to 10 years you count,

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you know, I said, I became an accountant of toilet

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paper.

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I said, so I know how many sheets I need

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to do or whatever I need to do. And she

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just laughed about it. And that's been always a joke

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in the home is, you know, like I freak out

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if I see one roll of toilet paper in a

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bathroom, its all over, you know like I'm, I'm either

Speaker:

at the store or I'm calling her ups. And did

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you get, is their toilet paper? I don't know about

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because we weren't with down. The one role hunt prison

Speaker:

makes you very humble and appreciative of a refrigerator. Yeah.

Speaker:

I did a thing with Peter Shankman on another. He

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was doing these things about being locked down and people

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saying we were in prison and I feel like I'm

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in prison. And I said, if they don't know what

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prison was like, you know, and I, I just posted

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this the other day.

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I was telling somebody they will complain about being locked

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down. They can't deal with it. You know, they, I

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said, look, I said, pick about this. I said, I

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was locked down 23 hours a day. I didn't have

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a refrigerator. I didn't have a phone. I didn't have

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food. Except for one, they brought him. I said it

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in Europe and I couldn't take a shower when I

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want it. I couldn't go and get something. I couldn't

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have a beer. I couldn't make a phone call. I

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couldn't do this. He said, this is nothing. I mean,

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they've taken up. Oh, you can't dine outside. Oh look

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you do to take at home. I couldn't even get

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takeout. Nevermind. You know? So I kind of, when I

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hear these people complaining about being locked on and it's

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like, Oh, this is a little bit past, don't worry

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to try being locked down in for six months and

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saying you can't do any of this.

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You can't have a refrigerator. You can't talk to your

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family. You can't take a shower when you want, you

Speaker:

know, you, you kinda go to the bathroom and your

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cell and granted, there's the people that say, well, you

Speaker:

deserve it. You did wrong. So that's what you deserve.

Speaker:

You're right. But you don't need to complain about this

Speaker:

lockdown. That's really, I mean, I understand that it's hard,

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but it's the only hard on the people that don't

Speaker:

understand that this has nothing, you know, and everyone comes

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to me, are you, you're not freaking out. I said,

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why should I should check out? This is a pretty

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good, I still couldn't walk to my refrigerator. You want

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a lot to me, you know, if the governor wants

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to shut the door and say, you got to stay

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in your house in six months, go for it. You

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know, I'll stay in, you know, no problem. I can

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do podcasts all day or you know, do whatever.

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I can still watch movies. Can't do that in prison.

Speaker:

You know? So I think, you know, when you get

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really down about this and I've had a lot of

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people talk about ADHD of being locked down, I tell

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them here's the alternative pick what it would be like

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to have ADHD locked in your bedroom with no access

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to the rest of your house. Okay. So now that's

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a lockdown. Get a phone call, anybody, you don't have

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a computer or you don't have a refrigerator. That would

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be a hard. So that's what I try to tell

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people when they come out. Cause it theirs. I mean,

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it's hard right now. I mean, I'm sure it's the

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same in Canada and I'm sure it's the same in

Speaker:

any place. If they have in lockdowns, it's hard for

Speaker:

people and they don't get it. You know, it's not,

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it's not that bad.

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You know, take, take it, take advantage of this because

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sooner or later you're going to release you and you

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are going to have to go to work again. Or

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are you going to have to fight the crowds again?

Speaker:

And all of that,

Speaker:

I, I know we have to show up, this one

Speaker:

has been going since 2017. And you mentioned, you've got

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another couple of your shows that are around him and

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you're just starting a new one as well as a

Speaker:

COVID one. What you'd go for the school because that's

Speaker:

amazing news about, you know, the screenwriter and, and you

Speaker:

know, the options we have Netflix and Amazon, et cetera.

Speaker:

What's your, your goals with this particular show, but when

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it comes to grow in it, are you continuing with

Speaker:

the, the formats and you think, do you think you'll

Speaker:

bring in talking about your experiences and present, et cetera,

Speaker:

to compliment the,

Speaker:

The shows? I would love to start a show about

Speaker:

the prison thing, the problem I've I'd like to do

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it. Like when I did the, I did an interview

Speaker:

with Chris Voss and we did a going back and

Speaker:

forth about being angry because he had a lot of

Speaker:

questions and it was nice. I think the duty show

Speaker:

the right way. It would be good with someone else

Speaker:

so that it would be someone that would want to

Speaker:

know more and dig deeper. Like I think a podcast

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about what they are making a, if they do this

Speaker:

movie or show would be cool because it would get

Speaker:

people. If they can't see that they can hear about

Speaker:

it and crime show, I hate to say it this

Speaker:

way, but crime shows do really well on a podcast

Speaker:

right now.

Speaker:

And, but I don't see it as a one point.

Speaker:

Like I can't see him doing it myself. I'd have

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to do it with somebody. So it would be kind

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of give and take someone that's never experienced that versus

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some of that has experience because that person will have

Speaker:

a lot of questions and he would bring out the

Speaker:

characters because it's so many characters that talk about an

Speaker:

interesting to see stories. Like, I mean, I always thought

Speaker:

that there is one guy I met who was doing

Speaker:

three life sentences and what it was was he went

Speaker:

to Rob a bank because his house has been foreclosed

Speaker:

on and he got a gun from somebody and he

Speaker:

didn't realize, I don't know. I mean, I believe, you

Speaker:

know, you have to believe what they say. But anyways,

Speaker:

the bottom line was what I did was he went

Speaker:

in to the bank, someone to pull the gun, he

Speaker:

was shot.

Speaker:

And what happens is that killed the bullet, went through

Speaker:

the first person that went in to the second person.

Speaker:

Second person died from blood loss, not from, you know,

Speaker:

but then another guy shot at him and he shot

Speaker:

that guy. It was all over the fact that he

Speaker:

was trying to save his home. So, I mean, he

Speaker:

still did wrong. And he, he admitted that and he

Speaker:

lost his family. He lost his kids and all that.

Speaker:

But when you hear the story and you're like G

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you know, he's trying to save his family, you know?

Speaker:

And, but then there's other people that, you know, I

Speaker:

met through the time that, you know, so I think

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the stories are relative to what goes on in life

Speaker:

every day, but people will never hear those stories because

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a lot of these guys don't go out and talk

Speaker:

about it. And I think it would be the way

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I looked at through an a podcast.

Speaker:

Or would it be interesting to do it as a

Speaker:

conversation so that, you know, people will be listening in

Speaker:

and hearing basically a conversation like this, about what his,

Speaker:

what goes on in prison and not everyone does about

Speaker:

what's life, like in prison, everyone does that, but it

Speaker:

shows, I've heard, you know, this is what are your

Speaker:

daily routine is And, that's not, what's interesting, its about

Speaker:

the guys that are in there that are some of

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them that have to tell you stories. And I had

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met him, a mob guy that was a Hitman and

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his thing was he grew flowers and he had all

Speaker:

different types of roses and he should do is show

Speaker:

me pictures. And he, he was like really into this

Speaker:

into botany and he never graduated high school, but he

Speaker:

learned to how to graph and he learned how to

Speaker:

do this. And he had these roses that were unbelievable.

Speaker:

And no one's ever going to hear about him. No

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one's ever going to know about him unless someone brings

Speaker:

it out and talks about it. And that's what I

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was. That was my goal of doing a podcast off

Speaker:

of this other thing. Even before that, you know, the

Speaker:

Netflix thing came about was doing something like that. You

Speaker:

could just kinda open up people's eyes at me, you

Speaker:

know, prisoners, the prisoners, you know, everyone's got their attitude

Speaker:

about it, but there's a lot of guys in there

Speaker:

that have some skills that people don't understand. Even like

Speaker:

what you learn when you're in there. I mean I

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learned a whole different legal world. I got in there

Speaker:

and did my own appeals. I started doing for all

Speaker:

of the people. I used to teach a business plan

Speaker:

in class that they want to, they, they did. I

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told them motivational class, which was from the workbook I

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wrote for my stockbrokers.

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I brought it into the prison. And what happened was

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the psychologist. When I went into law of Louisburg, they

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adopted it instead of the 12 step program. And it

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worked better because what it is, it made people really

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look at goals and setting up their lives. And I

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had inmates, I have 32 inmates that took that class

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over six months and they were asking for, they taught

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it to their kids over the phone. And I used

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to give the kids, the books or use it. I

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have more, I have my mom's sent them because my

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mom was out there. So my mom would send them

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to their families because these guys, these inmates wanted their

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kids to follow this course. And it was It, it's

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not quote unquote, faith-based like 12 step. This was about

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getting your life an order.

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And I, it was, I used it for my stockbrokers.

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I used it for insurance agents. So I brought it

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to the inside when I got in prison. And he

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said, this would be perfect for these guys. And we

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used to do it at night and I used that

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class. I taught and these guys, I mean, you've got

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a captive audience, basically, you know, which is great. You

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know, they're not going to anyplace. And now they're looking

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to get out of their cell for an hour. So

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they'd come down and for an hour we do it.

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Like I said, we, I used to have these guys

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writing business plans and some of these guys would never

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get it out of prison, but they wrote it for

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their family. They wrote a plan because they wanted the

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family to know that they weren't crazy or they weren't

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forgetting. I'm like one guy he had, he wrote a

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complete business plan for his son to open up a

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car detailing system and the kid follow the plan and

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did very well and successful.

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And it was all written while the father was in

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prison. So that, you know, to me, that's the stories

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that should be told that, you know, it, it is,

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you know, the guys, the guys that are, that are

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in, there are a human. Some of them are, I

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mean, there's some that are, you know, you don't wanna,

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you know, those are the stories you got to tell

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it to me because you got to show the other

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side, you know? And, and that's what, you know, that's

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where I'd like to see something come out is to

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define somebody that wants to do a podcast. That's really

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can be, you know, it could be interviews later on.

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But I think at first it's really about just talking

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about what the prison system is, the like and what

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it's like, the, you know, these different guys that are

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in there because I think that's the important thing. It

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isn't about what you do all day, because you know,

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some days you don't do anything.

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So there's, this is no excitement, you know, butt talking

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to some of these guys. This is a lot of

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stories, a lot of history. It's amazing what you find

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out. A lot of people, once they are in the

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air, they talk about everything and anything.

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And I think that'd be a look at a real

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interesting short to listen to it. One of the things

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that I like to do is I like to read

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them and I'm fascinated by the stories of people are

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and how they got to where they are to do

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well. That's, you know, and incarcerated for something that, as

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you mentioned, it could be just wanting to look after

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the family, which anybody can understand. Right. But there are,

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but for the grace of God and you're like, that

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goes, you are, and I, we can do the same

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thing you, so I think that'll be a real interesting

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to listen to is the actual this year, you know,

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w how did that go up there and how they're

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helping the people that are still left behind if you're

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like?

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Yeah, because I had my mom, my dad was killed

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in 80 81. So my mom was when I went

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away, he was in 95. So I had my mom

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up there and she was fighting cancer at the time.

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And she was still working is a woman that I

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was fighting cancer or colon cancer. She had a colostomy

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bag and she also was on an experimental, a chemo

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program from Harvard. And he was really interested because the

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chemo bag has looked like a via a VHS tape.

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And then it was the drug and a battery and

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she'd have to wear it. But I had, you know,

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I was taken care of her, even though she was

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working and I was still making sure she had money

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and all of that. And she would send me money

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and I still had things going on out on the

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street that I was dealing with.

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And then just before I took off the Canada, I

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still, from the, when I lost everything because of being

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arrested, the only thing that I was able to keep

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was my bond business, which wasn't, it was basically dormant

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when I went into prison. And in 2000 I had

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an offer from cancer and Fitzgerald in New York city

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to buy the bond business from me. And it was

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a chance for me to get rid of it, made

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sure my mom was set well, she passed away. So

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then I said, well, I don't even want the bond

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business. So I was all set in 2001 to meet

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with them. I was driving to New York city on

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September 11th. And I got stuck that I was on

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95, which is the main root from actually from Maine

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all the way to Florida.

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And I love that I was outside of Connecticut in

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New York city. I was on 95 and there was

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a car accident. So I was sitting in traffic and

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I'm running late from a meeting that I was supposed

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to be at at nine o'clock. And I was listening

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to a radio station I missed in the morning. And

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all of a sudden, he makes this announcement about the

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world trade centers getting hit, or a plane that he,

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he didn't. I thought it was a joke. And all

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of a sudden he calls the second plane hit. So

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now all of a sudden, then you start seeing things

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happening. And I had two friends at the trade center

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waiting for me. I can't, or if its shell, they

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had flown up for the Cayman islands and they died

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and I should have been there and I would of

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been dead, but for whoever was watching over me, I

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got behind a car accident and I never made it

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into the city.

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And right after that, I was when I went to

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Canada and I don't know, you know, I sit back

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now and think about that. You know what I mean?

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It's one of the things that Awais on my mind

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for years is my two friends died when I should

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have been there. But I think, you know, like you

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were saying about stories about coming up. I mean, there's,

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there's a lot more that goes into a lot of

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my background and all that. And some of it's interesting,

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some of it isn't, but Netflix liked it because they

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heard the whole background and they are not like a,

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I was afraid that we're going to say you can't

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do anything like a podcast. And they, they thought it

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would be good because if they do decide to do

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this, it would be a sales pitch. It even came

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out.

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And I just been waiting to kind of figure out

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how to do it. Like I said, I don't want

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to do it alone because it's, you know, it'd be

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just talking like, you know, just me talking, it'd be

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better to do it with someone and let them quiz

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me on a lot of things to help get along.

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Nah, I look forward to that to hopefully, you know,

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watching that come out and see in next year or

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that, or the year after that, if it goes into

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production as a person. Yeah. Yeah. It's a model. This

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is like, I really enjoyed chatting w

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About the Podcast

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Podcaster Stories
We listen to our favourite podcasts, but don’t always get to know the stories of the people behind these voices. Podcaster Stories looks to change that.

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About your host

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Danny Brown

Danny Brown is the host of One Minute Podcast Tips, the show that helps you be a better podcaster in just a minute a week. He's also hosted, and co-hosted, several other podcasts - if you called him a serial podcaster, you wouldn't be wrong! He's been in the podcasting space for over 10 years, and has the scars to prove it.

He's the Head of Podcaster Support and Experience at Captivate.fm, the world's only growth-oriented podcast hosting, distribution, analytics, and monetization platform for the serious indie podcaster.

He lives in beautiful Muskoka, Ontario, Canada with his wife and two kids, where he spends winters in front of a cozy fire and summers by the lake. Well, when he finds time away from podcasting, of course...