Episode 30

Lainey Cameron on Being the Only Woman in the Corporate Boardroom

This week, I sit down with Lainey Cameron, host of The Best of Women’s Fiction podcast, a show that highlights authors that Lainey respects, as well as interviews with best-selling and women fiction authors.

Each episode, Lainey and her guests share what inspired a favourite author’s book, as well as what advice they’d give to other writers.

Lainey is also the author of the award-winning novel, The Exit Strategy, which was inspired by a decade of being the only woman in the corporate boardroom. It’s been called a “rallying call for women to believe in themselves and join together” and tells the story of a Silicon Valley investor who first meets her husband’s mistress across the negotiating table.

If someone’s a great talent but a pain in the ass to work with, that’s going to be a problem.

For her first book, Lainey hired a voiceover professional to read the audio version, and she shares here how that process works.

Far from simply reading the words on a page, the artist needs to connect with the story and characters, to ensure the author’s vision remains, even when the end result can be something very different from what the author envisaged.

On Creating a Brand Through an Experiment

Lainey originally started podcasting as a video broadcaster using Streamyard for live interviews, and then decided to take that to an audio format.

To her pleasant surprise, the audio version of the show has overtake the video version, and is really taking off, helping her to connect more authors to a wider audience.

I wish I had had that kind of advice when starting out.

As the podcast has grown, Lainey is determined to continue giving a voice to lesser-known authors, and connecting them with the talent that can help them grow their audience.

The Importance of Vetting and Quality

As Lainey’s show has grown, so has the amount of cold pitches she’s receiving to have authors as guests on her show. While this can be a good thing when it comes to episode growth, it can also impact the amount of guests she has on, due to the extra research involved.

  • A limited amount of time to read the books sent to her
  • Minimal pre-release information or promo sheets
  • A lack of peer reviews to ensure the book and author are right for her show

Since Lainey is very conscientious when it comes to who and what she shares with her audience, this extra awareness can cause problems that weren’t there before.

The Continuing Problem with the Tech Industry

Lainey’s background is in the tech start-up world, specifically in Silicon Valley. Being the only high-flying woman executive in the room would come with its own challenges, on top of the job any executive would need to do as part of their everyday life.

It is frustrating and tiring to be the only woman in the room, and to be the only senior woman on the team.

It often lead to Lainey needing to be twice as good as the men in the same position, and understand that the microscope was on her even more because of her gender.

How She Ended Up Hunting with Stoned Tribesmen in Tanzania

As digital nomads, both Lainey and her husband have traveled to numerous parts of the world, leading to a mix of scary and funny adventures.

One that sticks in Lainey’s mind is when they were on a safari tour in Africa, and ended up going hunting with a bunch of stoned teenage tribesmen in Tanzania. Now that’s not something we can all say we’ve done!

Join us for an entertaining chat about the writing world, the ongoing toxic masculinity in the tech world, and why being a digital nomad offers incredible life lessons if you can take the opportunity to grab them.

Connect with Lainey:

Contact me: danny@podcasterstories.com

My equipment:

Recommended resources:



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Transcript
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It's interesting because I think people who went to a

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certain types of universities and came out of a certain

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frat boy culture used to go into a, like the

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Capitol finance industry is of the world. They go to

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the wall street, Right? And you got kind of that

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real growth frat boy culture on wall street. And then

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something happened about 10, 15 years ago where those same

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people graduating were going into tech instead because it was

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viewed as being where the big money big upside was.

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And so it made it worse in my opinion, because

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a certain type of person who was gravitating towards a

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certain type of life where it was all about the

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money you can make out of it. And it kind

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of made it worse. You still are in the gaming

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industry as well.

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I got really ugly and its still is a really

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ugly in gaming.

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Hi and welcome to Podcaster Stories. Each episode will have

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a conversation with podcasters from across the globe and share

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their story. What motivates them by the start to the

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show are the crucial And More will also talk about

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their personal lives. And some of the things that have

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happened to have Midem, the person who you are today

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and now here's your host, Danny Brown. Hi, welcome to

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Podcaster Stories. The show that gets to meet the people

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behind the voices of the show is we have listened

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to you this week. I have Lainey Cameron who's host

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of the best of women's fiction podcast. A show that

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brings you interviews with the best of women's fiction offers.

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So Lainey, welcome to the show. I really appreciate it.

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And just to give the gal the lesson, it was

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a quick heads-up. This is our third attempt to, to

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get them to listen to me.

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So I really appreciate the fact that you've made the

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time today. So welcome to the shop. How about you

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introduce yourself and your podcast?

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Sure. Thanks so much for inviting me. Danny is such

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a thrill to have the chance to share it with

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you. And I love your podcast. It's so fun. Seeing

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the diversity of different types of people who put together

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Podcasts. So let me tell you a little bit about

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myself. My name is Lainey Cameron. I am a full

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time digital nomad, which means that I pick places and

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my husband and I pick places around the world to

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live and work. All we need is a really good

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Wi-Fi signal wherever we are. And obviously we can talk

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about the pandemics, put a little bit of a, what

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would you say? A little bit of a problem. And

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to that, we had to make some different choices for

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the last year, but we're looking forward to getting back

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to our nomadic lifestyle, hopefully starting around October and that's

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our cross fingers hope and I'm a full time author.

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I write women's fictions. So books that are mostly enjoyed

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by women with tend to be kind of a heartwarming

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or emotional or thrilling storylines. My first book, my debut

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novel came out last year. It's called the exit strategy

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and I just got to the news last night, but

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it was in its fifth award. So I'm kind of

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celebrating on that. It's doing pretty well for a first

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novel. And I have a podcast called, like you say

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the best of women's fiction, which came out of a

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place where I wanted to use my own platform because

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I am starting to have quite quite a following. I've

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got about 7,000 followers on Instagram and I wanted it

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to use my own platform to uplift other authors who

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perhaps didn't have the visibility that I had, perhaps didn't

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yet have the readership or the following.

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And so I created the podcast as way to highlight

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author's that I admire and respect. So I tried to

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pick people who I think are among the best in

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the genre. I get a lot of pitches that they

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actually have to turn down and then its getting a

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little challenging. At this point, I'm getting a lot of

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pitches funnily from publicists, which is not something that I

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was expecting when I started the podcast. But it's fun

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because there are really short interviews. We keep them to

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15 minutes max and I ask, what is the inspiration

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behind the book? What does that germ have an idea

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that started this novel that just came out generally were

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talking about books that just released. I like to do

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the interviews and release them kind of the weekend after

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the book releases. And the reason I do that is

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really nice.

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When if you hear an interview and you like a

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book, you can go buy it right away. And very

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often and writer, world, what we do is this thing

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called pre-release campaigns where you can go buy the book,

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but it's not coming out for another three, four or

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five months. And so when you go give your money

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to whoever your book seller or have preferences and then

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you have to wait to actually read it and maybe

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it's me. I mean, I'm an impatient person. So what

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I do with the podcast is I weight. Even if

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we prerecord it, I weight and I release it right

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after the book is available. So that if someone likes

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the story, they're inspired by the author and they can

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go download it and read it at that very day.

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And so that's what I like to do. I'm a

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little different than people who do things for in advance,

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but it works for me. And it's a lot of

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fun because I'm finding that people are coming to me

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now. It's kind of funny.

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I've actually seen some big time authors post recently, some

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really big, best sellers like New York times, best sellers.

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I just read this book and this book I love

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to, I just read it and I find it from

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Blaney's podcast and its cracking me up that know people

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are like repeating it back to me that they bought

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books and loved books because they heard them on the

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podcast.

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That's awesome. And I, as the tape to a series,

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it's, it's a fiction writers. It's not a non-fiction what

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was the choice? Maier? What is the thinking behind it?

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Was it because you were a fiction writer yourself with

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your book? Or why are you not interested in Fiction?

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Okay.

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Because I love non-fiction books, but it was because that's

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the space I'm in. I am writing women's fiction. And

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so I felt like I had a very good handle

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on that space. I know a lot of the authors

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I've met many of them through the volunteer work that

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I do is work with an association called women's fiction

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writers association. So for me it was like, I know

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that space really well. I feel like I'm a quick

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to choose great authors. I love the non-fiction space and

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I love list listening to non fiction authors on club

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hosts these days. It's very fun to hear them talk

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about their books. I love nonfiction in audio books. I

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will actually, when the author and the rate's their own

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book, I find that fabulous when it's non-fiction I actually

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find in Fiction, it's better. If you get a professional

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narrator who is really able to perform It, it's more

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like acting when its a fiction novel fiction novel.

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That's a, what do you call that? When two words

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to me in the same thing, let's say I'm a

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writer and you're not suppose to ever say fiction novel

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because a novel by definition it's fiction. But Hey, whatever.

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So yeah, I love nonfiction, but I decided to focus

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the podcast on Fiction just because that's the space that

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I'm really familiar with. And gosh, the book world is

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so big to start with, right? You've got thousands of

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titles coming out every month that you kind of have

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to choose the focus of some type of otherwise. It

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will be really overwhelmed.

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And you had mentioned there obviously it's, it's great were

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in some club hosts at the moment that has the

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offer's is doing the reading. And it's interesting. You mention,

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you should just always, or you should get a professional

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voiceover, a personal the guests to do the, the, the,

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the, the, the fictional stuff. Cause it kind of reminds

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me of that. I saw a, like a documentary on,

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on Disney plus the boat at the animation process and

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actors that are doing the, the voice is for the

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animated characters who are doing and why should you, you

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could get anybody to give the voices. But if you

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bring in some one that does voiceover, what can it

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be like Mark Hamill as a well known for his

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voiceover work for all of the Batman cartoons or stuff

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like that, but bring it to someone in like sick.

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It just has a more nuanced than the norm when

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something needs to be emphasized or whatever the guests, and

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it makes it more enjoyable for the list that, and

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it helps the reader.

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He would have been reading the books otherwise.

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Yes. Especially because I believe the process when they're recording

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animation, as they're doing the Voice and then they're doing

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the animation to match, right? So like there, there are

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tweaking it, I believe as they go these days, the

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way they do it, I'm not, I'm not an expert,

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but I think that matters because that means that the

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voice needs to portray the character completely. And then the

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animation needs to match that as opposed to the other

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way, runs that they are trying to match a cartoon

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that already exist. And so it's a very similar when

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you are in the writing a book, I actually just

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went through this process for the first time with my

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own debut novel M it just came at it now,

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actually in April. And I heard he hired the narrator.

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She's called Susan Marlo. She's done a, a 150 books

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and the process of creating that, it's fascinating. The first

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thing they do is they read your book end to

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end.

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And then they actually come back to you with a

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few questions. And then the next part is the, well

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first, before all of that, they do additions. So I

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actually listened to 50 different auditions for, from 50 different

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voice talent. And I picked this, this narrator because I

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really like the way he was portraying my two characters

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differently to each other. And also she came really recommended

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from another author friend who says she was approached. He

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was really easy to work with, which matters, right? If

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someone's great talent, but they are a pain in the

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ass to work with. That's going to be a problem.

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And so I picked her for both of those reasons

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and he was so fun to hear how it works.

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So if this was all new to me, they do

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a 15 minutes. At least this was the way it

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worked with her. I think it's pretty standard. They do

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a 15 minute section of the book.

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So you choose which voices you want to hear. So

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in my case, I have two main characters in the

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book. The first one is a really powerful Woman venture

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capitalist. And the second one is a CEO. Who's also

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a single mom and it's very dramatic in the opening

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scenes. The powerful CEO has just discovered her husband is

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cheating. And she's about to walk in to this meeting

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where she was going to sign a deal. She is

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investing in accompany that she's brought her whole career on.

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And it on the opening page, she realizes that the

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woman who owns this company is her husband's mistress. And

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so what really mattered to me is that the narrator

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got that these were two very different characters and portrayed

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them very differently so that you were never confused that

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my CEO, mom, Carly, with a big case of imposter

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syndrome versus my powerful venture capitalist, they couldn't have the

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reader be confused about who thinking, and who's had written

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at any point in time, but also I really wanted

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the tension to get across because the book has a

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page Turner.

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Many people have told me that Reviews kind of the,

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the number one thing that turns up and Reviews as

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people say its a page Turner we'll, you can mess

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with that in an audio format, if you weren't careful,

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if you didn't get it right. So I wanted that

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same kind of tension. And so I picked a narrator

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who also does suspense novels. So she does thrillers in

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suspense as well as women's Fiction. And I think that

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helps with her and kind of getting that tension into

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it. And then the fun thing is you don't hear

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it again until the whole thing has done. So they

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don't give it to you in sections. They really want

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to do the whole book. It is performing. It's acting

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that they're they're doing here. And so she did the

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entire book and then I got 12 hours of audio

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to listen to. And you go back with what are

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called pickups, which is basically any little things that need

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change.

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So like a small word, you know, she said all

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of it instead of on or a pronunciation of something

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like a place that's a real place that's pronounced drop,

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pronounced strong. And so you go back with that and

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then you fix those. And she really was a pro

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because I think in a book of 12 hours of

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audio, we only had to fix like, I think it

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was like 10 or 15 things in total, which has

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almost nothing, nothing. If you think about it, it's, it's

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almost nothing. And the funnest part of the whole process

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for me as a writer and this is my first

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book in my debut novel was you don't actually get

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to hear your book read by somebody else. Like there's

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a common thing we say in the writer world, which

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is once you put your work into the world, it

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does not belong to you anymore.

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And if you think about this, every book you've ever

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read your reading through the lens of your own personal

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experience, right? So when I read any book, whether it's

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fiction nonfiction, especially if I get triggered by a book,

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that's not really a bit of the book it's about

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me and my personal history and something that happened that

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makes certain topics trigger me. It's the same reason you

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can't take negative reviews to personally because it just means

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you have to your, your work trigger triggered that person,

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which could be completely to do with their life experience

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and nothing to do with that book in particular. And

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so you, you kind of get used to this concept

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that, that people say, once you're work is in the

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world, you don't own it. It belongs to the reader,

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everybody's reading from their own lens, their own life. But

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here's the fun thing is you never actually see that

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in action, right?

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I don't get to watch over someone's shoulder while they

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read my book, right. It's happening apart. Right. I get

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to see the reviews at the end of the day

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and what their overall impression was. But I don't get

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to actually sit and hear someone else to read my

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work. And so 12 hours of hearing how someone else

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interpreted this, which was not a tall, the way I

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said the words, the intonation, the way the phrases were

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said, it was different. It was an entirely different. And

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yet it still worked. That was actually a really kind

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of prayed moment. Like, wow, I created the thing and

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here's someone else reading the thing. And even though it's

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not the way I imagined it, it still cool. And

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so that was a kind of a big Hi so

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far and my author career, or the first time I've

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got to listen to those 12 hours of audio.

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And I was going to ask you that because you

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had mentioned,

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You only have to do about 15 change is 15

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minutes or 15. What is it called? Back's pick up,

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pick up, pick up. So you don't need to do

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it for 15 pick-ups. So obviously you've got this after

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the day after a green and the first time that

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you are going to send over, you think in the

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back and till it was finally finished with, it must

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have been cleaned in all of us to start with

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thinking in my group, I'm going to have a son

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who is, you have any edits on it, you know,

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pick up the taskforce. So listen to it back then.

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You mentioned it, officer, the voiceover artists at a great

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job and internet in some of the stuff that you

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hadn't maybe intended, intended to be intonated that way, or

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was it like almost like an out of body experience

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and, and less than a back and thinking, this is

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a really good book and not even thinking it was

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your book that was being read at the time,

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Because there were a couple of moments that it makes

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me sound it a little, like a humble bragging, but

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there were a couple of moments where I was like,

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huh, that really worked like in a way that I

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hadn't like to me, it was like, okay, like I

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thought it worked, but it was okay. And then when

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I heard her read it and she was putting all

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of the emphasis into It, which is possibly what every

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reader is doing in their head. I was like, Oh,

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that actually works better than I thought it did. Like,

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like I think we are our harshest critics of our

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own work. We were talking earlier, before, earlier, before we

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started it at the editing, Right? When you have to

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edit it to Podcast and how much work goes into

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that. And it's very similar by the way, with audio,

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for, for an audio book, the, what the narrator charges

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U is pear finished. Our, the acronym is P S

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H, which says that they're charging you an hourly rate,

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but not for their hours of work for the finished

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our of Audio.

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And I actually just interviewed My, my audio and the

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Raider actually on my, on my own podcast. I invited

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her last week. I said, come and talk to me.

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I'm going to interview you about the art of being

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an audio narrator. How did you get into it? What

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are the highs and the lows what's difficult, what's easy.

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And she was sharing that for each hour of finished

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work. She has probably read the book five to six

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times for that hour. So for each of our finished

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work, so the first time she reads it and then

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she's actually narrating it, then she's editing it than she

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is. She's editing it multiple times. And so she said

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at least five times, she's read that same hour of

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the book before she gets to a finished it.

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Wow. That's, that's crazy. I know when I'm doing it

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at it and it takes about two and a half

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times the amount of the finished product. So as the

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show is 30 minutes long, I'm editing for about two

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hours, maybe. I dunno. So I couldn't imagine him written

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a book five or six times to get to the

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one on the one record and know that's, that's incredible.

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Well, it, that episode that we were all looking forward

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to listen in to that one.

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My one is at the exit strategy is now in

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April. I just came out or it's just getting out

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there and this week actually got it

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Or something, I will look out for that. No, we

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had mentioned that this start and you're sure, I think

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primarily that at the beginning of this year, but actually

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started out as a video Podcast. So what's the transition

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to Audio have been like for you?

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And it's, you know, the first thing I'll say is

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it's been a surprise, how many people just love the

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podcast format? And like you said, I started on video.

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And the reason I did that was I was trying

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to leverage, like I said, my following. And so I

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thought the most, the best way to do that is

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to do on Instagram TV. So I did it as

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videos that I released on Instagram TV. And then just

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at the beginning of this year, I thought, you know,

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it wouldn't be that much more work to also make

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it into a podcast. I checked out anchor FM, and

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I discovered that you could take your video. I record

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the videos on Streamyard. You could take the video and

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upload it to anchor FM and it will strip the

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audio. And then I would add like a header at

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the beginning, I would add some music, but it wasn't

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like a whole separate thing.

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It could be, you know, maybe 40% more work to

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also do it as a podcast, as opposed to, you

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know, for a hundred percent more work. And so I

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did it as an experiment at the beginning, the first

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for podcasts that are released. And I thought, well, let's

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see if anyone's even interested in this format. And it

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shocked me how excited everybody got it. But the fact

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that it was now a podcast and all these people

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who are like, Oh, I always wanted to watch the

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video, but I can never find time. And now I

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can listen to it while I'm doing my house work

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or when I'm taking my kids to, you know, their

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stuff, soccer practice. If you still get to go to

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these days or why not? Well, I'm taking my kids

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somewhere in the car. And so it was fascinating to

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me, the excitement level that came over that, and also

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how much I started getting pitched and how many more

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people wanted to go be on the show, know that

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it was a Podcast.

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And so its growing and encourages people to, to check

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it out. And it's a really short 15 minute episodes

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each, but, and we've done a couple of special episodes.

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One was with my narrator, which was a little bit

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longer. It was 30 minutes cause I wanted it to

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do a full interview and I actually included pieces of

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the audio book as examples. So when she talks about

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how do you do different voices? I took a piece

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of the audio book for three minutes after it actually

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put it into the podcast that people could hear an

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example, which I thought it was kind of fun. So

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it made it more real to hear what she was

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talking about. And then I did a special episode, which

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was also 30 minutes long where I took all of

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the best advice from the first 30 odd authors who

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had been on the podcast and on the videos. And

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I created one, one podcast episode that was just advice

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for aspiring writers and its really cool.

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It was a lot of great stuff in there. If

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you're ever thinking about getting into the writing profession or

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even doing it as a hobby, that one's the one

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I would definitely not miss. I wish I'd had all

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of that advice when I started at all.

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And then that's a great thing that you mentioned it

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a little bit Podcasts. If you can put it basically

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in the background and do it, whatever you're doing it,

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you know, you can go up on the treadmill, you

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can go maybe not golfing, right. And I guess you

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could go off and do that out, but it, it

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makes it an easy buy in to anybody, but there's

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no technical, you know, binds or anything. It was really

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cool to hear to hear that it's just been picked

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up so well. And, and obviously your guests are all

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offers. Hence the name of the, the, the Podcast, the

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best of women's Fiction, a podcast. And you mentioned that

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you wanted to give a voice, you want to use

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your platforms to give a voice to offer is it

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may not have platform themselves. Is it a, like a,

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obviously that was one of the processes. What are your

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process for picking whose Lake to have on as guests

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or who we'd like to interview for the podcast?

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And in the beginning it was very easy for me

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because I would say I'm very well connected to the

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women's fiction writers community. I used to be the head

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of programs for WFW a women's fiction writers association, which

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is an association of about 1500 members, all of whom

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write women's fiction. And so in the beginning it was

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easy because I would know most of these authors either

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through WFW way or M I'm a host of a

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Facebook group where we have 10 author hosts called blue

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sky book chat. And so I would also hear about

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books through that and through our writers there as well.

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So we're in the beginning, it was easy because I

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was doing invite only like I was reaching out and

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inviting people. And it wasn't hard for me to think

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of who to invite 'cause I would just say that

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like for example, And Garvin, who is an author, I

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totally admire her third book is coming out in may.

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So I would just send her a quick message even

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on diorama and say, Hey On, so are you going

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to a new one coming? I want to be on

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the show. It was that simple. And then I had

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a standard email that I sent that explained how it

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works, that we X we recorded on Streamyard that what

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they need in order to do the recording. But it

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was the standard email that went every time and we

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just agree on a release weekend and then we could

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record at any time in advance. And then I got

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a bit more sophisticated recently where I'm using Calendly, where

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people can pick their own schedule so that I don't

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have to get into the scheduling back and forth, but

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what's actually become really hard. No is now that I'm

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getting pitched bye books and authors that I don't know,

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I'm having to do more research in order to decide

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whether or not to say yes and that's actually, I

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don't like that.

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I don't actually like being in the position of having

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to say no to somebody sometimes, but sometimes the book,

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you know, it doesn't have very many reviews yet. It's

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kind of hard to know and I'm not going to

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have time to read every single book. I read a

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lot of books. I do a lot of blur. So

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just to try and help me, my fellow authors from

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time to time, I do beta reading. So I will

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have seen the book even a year before it came

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out in an early form. But you know, it, it's

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not realistic at this point. Like someone just asked me

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if I can write them a blurb by the end

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of may. And I said, honestly, I have 15 books

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that have committed to rate and review by the end

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of may. I want to help you, but I'm not

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sure it can do it like time physically timewise. And

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so its becoming a bit more of a challenge because

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it used to be, if I wasn't sure about a

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book, I would just say, Hey, send me a copy

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and I'll read it and then I'll work on it,

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whether it fits.

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But now that it's just more than I can commit

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to. So I have to look at it like M

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are they referred by an authorized Myer? So if, if

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Camille pick up again, who I adore, he is a

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fabulous, best selling author says, this person should be on

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your podcast. I trust her instincts. She knows what she's

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talking about. And she is a book coach. She wouldn't

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send me a book that isn't worthy and isn't really

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among the best. And so that's easy. So sometimes I'm

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having to do it a little bit more GQ when

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people reach out to me, I actually had to write,

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go like, okay, who do we have a blurb from?

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What a blurb is. Right. And it is when your

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book is coming out, you reach out to other authors

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and you ask if they'll read up for you before

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it's in the world. And then they write, it's basically

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like an advanced review by an author. And that's what

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you see. Like when you see two sentences on the

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front of a book or you see it on Amazon

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where it has some quotes, right.

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As the book comes out, that's before readers even got

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access to it. So that's going to be other authors.

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There are given an early copy. And so I'll look

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if it has a good blurb, if it's, you know,

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it's easy, if it's an author, I know. And, and,

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and I admire, and they were already a bestseller that

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Susie, but like M I'll look at who is recommending

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them to me, I'll look at their blurbs if they've

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won any awards or prizes already before the book came

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out, that one's a little trickier. Cause it was not

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that many pre-publication awards. And sometimes I'll kind of say

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like, I just don't the current situation. I literally don't

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have any slots before September. Like I am booked every

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weekend through September. In fact, I've got a short season

Speaker:

break in there, which I'm trying valiantly to hold for

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two weeks.

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So then I can take two weeks off. But other

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than that, like I'm booked through mid September right now.

Speaker:

And so I've also gotten to the point where sometimes

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not saying like, listen to the book through September to

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check back with me on a few months. And then

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that way I know the book is going to be

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out in a few months. Maybe I can see a

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little bit more about it, then it's out there yet.

Speaker:

And maybe that will give me a bit more information

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as well. So I am not very good at saying

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no, I hate saying no to a fellow authors. It

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makes me feel bad.

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Yeah. And then obviously, as you mentioned it, and it

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needs to fit in and review our show and, and

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you'd go, you know, with the gas team to highlight

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the guests and give them more because I can imagine

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if someone has already got a fairly, a large audience,

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so I've got a whole host, the award's behind them.

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That may be a less of a, an attractive guest

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for one of about a world. That was the title

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of a description that, and less of a, a, an

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attractive cast for you to talk to, maybe that are

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up and coming in, or maybe you just had one

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bucco or something or is that not the case?

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Oh, I love both. No, I, I love both. Author's

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like, so for example, I've had Carrie lens, Dale who

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was a big, best seller on I've had Barbara O'Neill

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who sold. Gosh, I think she sold 2 million copies

Speaker:

through Lake union publishing. It's crazy. And the cool thing

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about these guesses. Yes. They'll come on and we'll talk

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about the inspiration for their, their latest book. But what

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I love asking authors who are multi, multi time, best

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sellers in a bit to talk to a Bentley Crosby

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in the coming week, she's in that category too, is

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how do they keep having inspiration? It's one thing to

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have inspiration for one novel are two or three, but

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when you get to talk to someone who's had a

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10 plus best-selling million copied books. Like I want to

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know how the heck they keep doing that because I

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want to do that like some day.

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And so I know a lot of my listeners are

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also writers and they're interested in like, where does the

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inspiration keep coming from? You know, Barbara and Neil is

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shared some fascinating things around how is she keeps newspaper

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clippings. And her husband was like C something in the

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news, like quirky or weird. Someone ran a way to

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the circus. And he was like snippet for her and

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send it to her for her file. And she just

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keeps like an inspiration file. So that as she's working

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on one novel, all this stuff is brewing in her

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inspiration file for the next one. And then the other

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thing I love to ask authors who are further down

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the path is what the advice is for writers who

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are just starting out, who are many years behind them

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are a few years behind them. That's a question I

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ask every guest and it is interesting how different the

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answers are from a new author whose first book is

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coming out and it's called a debut author, which is

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what I was last year versus someone who has had

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many books.

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And I think one of the things readers don't realize

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that even writers don't realize as a writer world is

Speaker:

the author of the path is pretty up and down.

Speaker:

It's a roller coaster, even when you are a best

Speaker:

selling author. So this is a fabulous episode with ,

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who I referenced earlier. He was one of my favorite

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Novelis and this is a fabulous episode where she shares

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the, now people know her as this best selling author,

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but she shares that her debut, when it came out

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was slammed in the Reviews. Like she wants it to

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crawl onto the bed and die level of bad. And

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she brings this up to say, you assume, when you

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look at her now, and she's this incredible best selling

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author, and she has a book coach, and she's really

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well known that that was like a seamless flawless path.

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And she was like, I almost gave up after book

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one. It was such a disaster for me. Like I

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felt personally offended that everybody was saying they added to

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it and it's not true, but everybody was saying that

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they hated it. It has, you know, very Reviews, but

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we take it personally when our work in the world

Speaker:

and it was criticized. And so I loved talking to

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other sir Further in the path and, and encouraged folks

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that listen to Camille, his own words as she describes

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that she does, is it much better justice than I

Speaker:

am, but I love when people share that the ups

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and downs of it, the way they keep going, like

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Barbra Neil share the idea that how do you find

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your voice? She has a very strong voice. One of

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the things people love about her books is when you,

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when you read her book, you know, it's Barbara and

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Neil book, and that's, what's called having a voice as

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an author.

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And if you think of it and the thing that

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you love to read or to listen to, right? The

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personality that makes that person on the radio, that person

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or their podcast, that's the same thing. It's a voice,

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right? And so she said, the way you find your

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voice is you listen to what people say about your

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work and what people compliment about it, and that's your

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Voice like, and then double-down on it. So take that

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thing and do it even more because that's you doubling

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down on your voice, your voice that people will appreciate

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it.

Speaker:

So it was really interesting. And I look, I really

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liked that advice because generally as human beings, we're always

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looking for the worst and we're always, if someone's speaking

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both of us, we take that a lot more seriously

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than our son was trying to put us compliments. And

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they know my wife always tells me that I'm really

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bad at accepting compliments. And, and I need to work

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on that. And, and I do, I want to bet

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that I think that is a Scottish thing really. And

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I think that's a fair, our, so we, we don't

Speaker:

take off the ones to use a bit, but I

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love that at face. And especially as you mentioned as

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an offer our, our, our content creators, you know, that

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it's a podcast, a blog or whatever else, you're always

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gonna have people. It, it isn't public. So you have

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to have that kind of fixed skin to know that

Speaker:

they're on a boat and what you put out, as

Speaker:

opposed to you yourself. And that advice about pick up

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on the thing that they are praising you for it,

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because that's who is actually you.

Speaker:

I love that advice. And, and I'm guessing that's what

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you are, you've taken into. You're, you know, you're, you're

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Corporate now. It has to do which we'll talk about

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it. So that actually moving in to the book world,

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et cetera, so I can get, and that's been a

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good primer for you. Okay.

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Yeah, it has, you know, this book is interesting. My

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own book that just came out and it was just

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talking to someone on an author, a podcast about author

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marketing, Dana K. She has a podcast about our culture

Speaker:

breakout book. And it's all about how to market your

Speaker:

book as an author. And one of the questions she

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was asking me was how did you who your audience

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was? And I said, honestly, I didn't because this book

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has a bit unique. Its two women who are putting

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in this dramatic situation, but ultimately it's a book about

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friendship and its a feminist book and it's uplifting, but

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there was no other book that was quite like that

Speaker:

in the world. And so normally when you're bringing out

Speaker:

your book, what you look for is something called cop's.

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That means comparable titles.

Speaker:

And you say, okay, this book is really like that

Speaker:

other book. So what I'll do the same things for

Speaker:

marketing that the other person did because it works for

Speaker:

them. And you also physical. Like you, you actually compare

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you say its just like Twilight. If you love Twilight,

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you will love this found pair novel to, and now

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obviously I couldn't do that. So what I did is

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when you were a book, goes out into the world,

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first, it becomes available for early Review from readers, not

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just from authors, but there was a service called net

Speaker:

galley where you can put your book up on net

Speaker:

galley and people can get it for free before it's

Speaker:

released in exchange for writing an honest review about the

Speaker:

book. And now you have to have a hard skin

Speaker:

to go on and look at your neck, galley or

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Reviews before the book comes out of it.

Speaker:

But I actually did go in and I read them

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from the lens, like you say of who enjoyed this

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book, who is this book for who read it and

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said, I love this to death. And those are the

Speaker:

people I need to find more of because there was

Speaker:

one of my readers and I found that women who

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are preciate female friendships, women who, our professional women, anyone

Speaker:

whose worked in an office environment, anyone who likes kind

Speaker:

of a little bit of tension, but it ultimately happy

Speaker:

story. But interestingly, I find that like thriller Raiders who

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read only pure thrillers, we're not digging this book because

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it's not exactly that it's about friendship and its a

Speaker:

bit more touchy feely by the end of the book

Speaker:

than a pure thriller, right?

Speaker:

Like the husband who portrayed them both, it does not

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die during the book. You would want him dead if

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it was the thriller and you would want them both

Speaker:

to make them dead. And so it was just really

Speaker:

helpful as a way you got to put on your

Speaker:

arm or your emotional armor, but a way to say

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it, like who is this book for? Because I didn't

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have an easy way to tell that before it came

Speaker:

out. And so I think that might be my startup

Speaker:

background, but it's okay to just try something and see

Speaker:

what happens and then learn and then go from there.

Speaker:

No, you mentioned you start a background and obviously your

Speaker:

book, the exit strategy is set in the tech world

Speaker:

around a high flyer and executives have that world, which

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is your own story. You are a high-flying tech executive

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yourself. So how much of the book has pulled from

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your own life and the tech industry?

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This is one of my favorite questions I worked in

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Silicon Valley and for how it worked for a really

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big tech companies, I've worked for a multibillion-dollar almost hundred

Speaker:

billion dollar, a tech company managing a billion dollar division's.

Speaker:

And then I also worked for startups, Creating the whole

Speaker:

company, getting the marketing team off the ground as a

Speaker:

chief marketing officer. And I did that for 20 years.

Speaker:

And then after 20 years I was pretty burned out.

Speaker:

It is frustrating and tiring to be the only woman

Speaker:

in the room and to be the only senior woman

Speaker:

on the team, like after a while it starts to

Speaker:

really wear you down. And so I decided to take

Speaker:

six months, I just finished one. And normally you kind

Speaker:

of roll straight into the next one. And the minute

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you leave, the head hunters are calling you and your

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working out where you're going next.

Speaker:

And I decided to give myself six months to see

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if I had an ending to this book. I actually

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didn't know. I had a beginning at a very clear

Speaker:

picture of how the book started with this wife and

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a mistress who are forced to work together, but I

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didn't know where it ended. And so I gave myself

Speaker:

six months to, to right, the first draft. Now anyone

Speaker:

who's close to the writing world knows we call it

Speaker:

a shitty first draft for a reason. The first draft

Speaker:

is just that I love the phrase that says you

Speaker:

are just pummeling. So you're pouring sand and to the

Speaker:

sandbox, that's the goal of a first draft is to

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give yourself something, to work with an editor it's in

Speaker:

the real beauty of words and writing actually happens in

Speaker:

revision, right? As you revise it many times before it

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comes out. But I gave myself six months. Cause I

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didn't even know if I had the end of the

Speaker:

story.

Speaker:

Right. Okay. And I didn't know if this was really

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going to be my gig and was I willing to

Speaker:

step back? No, I'm a good paying job in tech.

Speaker:

You know, writers don't make very much your money to

Speaker:

do this instead. And what happened is I give it

Speaker:

six months and after six months I found out, I

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didn't know the ending and I wanted to keep it

Speaker:

going. They give the sh the book a chance to

Speaker:

actually see the world. So then they get myself another

Speaker:

six months on my husband and I realized, well, if

Speaker:

I'm not earning any money while I'm riding, before it

Speaker:

comes out, why are we still living in San Francisco?

Speaker:

Why are we still paying rent at crazy San Francisco

Speaker:

rental prices? And he's a tech guy. And he realized

Speaker:

that he could do his job from anywhere. He does

Speaker:

consulting and tech development for various companies. And so that

Speaker:

was what drove us into becoming nomads.

Speaker:

So we realized we could live and the most beautiful

Speaker:

places in the world, as long as they have wifi

Speaker:

for, you know, a 10th of the price of what

Speaker:

it would cost us to be in San Francisco. And

Speaker:

depends on your places. Like sometimes it's not a 10th,

Speaker:

sometimes it's a half, but you know, we avoid expensive

Speaker:

cities. Like we'd never spent significant time in London or

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Paris because that would kind of define the point. It

Speaker:

would be like being in San Francisco, but we've lived

Speaker:

in Cartagena, Colombia, which is fabulous. I thoroughly recommend it.

Speaker:

We just, we had been in and out have many

Speaker:

locations and Mexico right now in San Miguel de

Speaker:

where we actually have a house that we are going

Speaker:

to rent part time and come to part time by

Speaker:

October were hoping to be a new Orleans. We actually

Speaker:

just preliminarily, but for ourselves and air BNB in October

Speaker:

for the full month in new Orleans, if anyone's looking

Speaker:

for a travel recommendation and obviously you can't make to

Speaker:

concrete plans right now, cause we don't know what's going

Speaker:

to happen with the world, but I'm kind of crossing

Speaker:

my fingers.

Speaker:

That enough of those will be vaccinated, including myself, that

Speaker:

by October we'll be able to be a little bit

Speaker:

more open and all of the fun things that happen

Speaker:

in new Orleans during the year like jazz Fest quarter

Speaker:

festival, it was another one of the big electronic music

Speaker:

festival. There were four big festivals that happened over the

Speaker:

year and they've all moved to October. So in a

Speaker:

way, in one month you get like a year of

Speaker:

new Orleans festivals, pretty much everything, but Mardi Gras is

Speaker:

preliminarily booked for October. And so if it goes ahead,

Speaker:

it's going to be a pretty fun, lovely meal. I

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love to visit. And the thing about being a digital

Speaker:

nomad for us as we work full time, we're not

Speaker:

traveling to be on vacation, right. Were both working a

Speaker:

full time schedule. So even if none of those things

Speaker:

happen.

Speaker:

So as long as it's safe to be an, an,

Speaker:

an Airbnb and walk around the streets, we'll still be

Speaker:

able to walk around and buy Bengay and drink coffee.

Speaker:

And I enjoy walking around in new Orleans, even if

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none of the festivals.

Speaker:

Okay. And you'd mentioned it in your career, you are

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the only high flyer, a woman executive in your industry.

Speaker:

And we've seen in recent years with the me too

Speaker:

movement, especially for the tech industry, that can be a

Speaker:

very sexist and toxic place you were in industry for

Speaker:

awhile. And I was wondering with the reputation has a

Speaker:

special in San Francisco. Did you encounter any of this

Speaker:

toxicity in your own experiences?

Speaker:

Oh yeah. I, I didn't thoroughly answer your question. I'm

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going to actually answer your question from before. And the

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answer to this, you have to ask, you know, how

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much of the book was from RE inspired by real

Speaker:

life and how do they get to the story? And

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what happened is I had the inspiration was the wife

Speaker:

and the mistress story. And then I asked myself, well,

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where am I going to set this? So if I

Speaker:

have this waste on the way from this mistress are

Speaker:

forced to work together, where am I going to set

Speaker:

that story? And what's the scenario where they're forced to

Speaker:

work together. And the obvious answer for me coming from

Speaker:

having works in Silicon Valley for 20 years, I'll just

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set in Silicon Valley, I'll sit it in the world.

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I am used to where you got startups and you

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got venture capitalists and visiting and investing in those startups.

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So that was the easy choice, the sexism and its

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really funny because this book has been called a feminist

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Anthem, the sexism, I actually didn't set out to right

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into the book.

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I just said it. And what I was used two

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and wrote the story of what that world looks like.

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I wanted to show people what it felt like to

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be in that world to be the only woman in

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the boardroom and the sexism is just part of what

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I experience through my entire career. And so I actually

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wrote an author's note at the end because my own

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mother, interestingly after I didn't let her read it until

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it was final and it was actually done with copy

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edits and then I let her read it because my

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mother is super critical. She is the most critical person.

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I know she is an ex English lecturer to give

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you an idea. And I knew that she was going

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to pick it apart. And I wasn't, I wasn't mentally

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able to deal with that. I just knew that I

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wouldn't be able to have my own mother picked my

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work apart until it was like done.

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And I felt like it was as good as it

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could be. But when she read it, my mother says

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to me, so all of that stuff about the sexism

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and the, the main character or the head of the

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venture capital from who they ultimately have to work out

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how to take down together, like you made all that

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up that's Fiction. Right? And I actually had to explain

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to my own mother, but not a word of that

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was made up. In fact, the author's note says that

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I toned it down. I significantly toned down in the

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sexism in the book because I felt like for people

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who didn't live in that world, it wasn't going to

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be credible. And I actually mentioned in the, in the

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author's note that there was an example of something that

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I experienced frequently in Tech, which is meetings happening at

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strip strip clubs where the guy's we've been in a

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meeting all afternoon and they say, lets take this meeting

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to a strip club and your face with this horrible

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decision as a woman of like, you're either going to

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say, you know, no hell no.

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In which case you are that person and now you

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are like out of it because they're going to go

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anywhere. So now you're out of the meeting or you're

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going to go and have the most awkward business meeting

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and the history of reality where some woman is wiggling

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her tits and ass over you while you're trying to

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have a business conversation or you're going to make the

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joke of it and tried to be one of the

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guys, but not kind of, it's horrible. It's just a

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horrible, horrible situation because there is no good answer in

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that scenario other than don't do it. Don't suggest it's

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a stupid idea. But that was an example of something.

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I took her out of the book because I just

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thought people are not going to believe that actually happens.

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Even though it happened to me four or five times

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over at my career. Right.

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What do you think needs to change as someone has

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been in Australia at high level and seeing the experience

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you just mentioned there, for example, what needs to be

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done to encourage diversity in quality, especially on the tech

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industry, which is always come across as, you know, a

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Silicon Valley threat boys continue to act a where the

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product in the college.

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Yeah, there is a whole, there is a whole bro

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culture. There is a, if you just Google like bro

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Silicon Valley, there's a whole, all these terms around to

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it as well. And it's interesting because I think people

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who went to a certain types of universities and came

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out of a certain frat boy culture used to go

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into a, like the Capitol finance industry is of the

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world. They go to wall street, Right? And you got

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kind of that real bro frat boy culture on wall

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street. And then something happened about 10, 15 years ago

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where those same people graduating were going into tech instead

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because it was viewed as being where the big money

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big upside was. And so it made it worse in

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my opinion, because a certain type of person who was

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gravitating towards a certain type of life where it was

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all about the money you can make out of it.

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And it kind of made it worse. You saw that

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in the gaming industry as well. I got really ugly

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and its still is a really ugly in gaming. The

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simple answer to this. And if I knew like a

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silver bullet to make this happen easily, I would, I

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would tell you the simple answer is we need teams

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that look like the diversity of the world we live

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in. So we need a team when we have a

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team and that includes the senior team have a start-up

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you know, there should not be one woman on the

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board, right? We don't live in a world where out

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of a board of 10 people, one woman, so 10%

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of the world is not Women, right? 50% of the

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board should be a woman. And having one woman on

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a board actually puts a horrible burden on that one

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woman where she is not only speaking for herself, she's

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speaking for all of womankind and she's playing the role

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of being a vote, a woman on the board in

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addition to being herself and succeeding as herself.

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So it was like a double burden on that Woman

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and its the same thing. If you were the only

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black person on the board, if you're the only person

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of Indian descent, if you are the only transgender person

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on the board, like pick any category, if there's only

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one, you then have to play a double role of

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representing your group in addition to actually doing your job.

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So your having to do to kind of almost like

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twice the work and represent yourself differently as a woman,

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your, your having to, I talk about this a lot

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with other career woman, you're having to manage how you're

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perceived as a woman and how your emotions are perceived

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in addition to actually getting across your point that you

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want to make in the meetings. So, you know, or

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if a man finds that something has happened where, you

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know, the company does something terrible, right?

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Like we lie to on an application form, the guy

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gets to slam his fists on the desk and say,

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unacceptable. We do not do that in this company ever.

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And the whole team sits up, it takes a toll,

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pays attention and they go, he's angry. This is really

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bad. What we did if a woman does the same

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thing and slams her hand on the table and it

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says, this is unacceptable. Everybody goes, Whoa, she's kind of

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hysterical today. And you get perceived entirely differently and you're

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anger is perceived differently. Its not perceived as a productive

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thing. And so you're constantly managing how you express your

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emotions, which has not necessarily the way you would naturally

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express them. And again, that's a double burden. So you

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were like, you're representing womankind.

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You are trying to do your job and you are

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managing your emotions are perceived on the meeting. Gosh, it's

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tiring. And I think it's tiring for any group that

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is not represented at an equal level or at a

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minimum at an equal level to what they represent in

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society. I mean, if you look at African-Americans, there are

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so few in Tech, it's ridiculous how often you will

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have an entire tech company of a a hundred person,

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a hundred people and not one African American on the

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entire team. And so like, you know, one would be

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one of the a hundred is 1%. It's 10% of

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the population than the us. So why is it not

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10% of the population that are companies like, and I

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know it's not easy to solve, but that's what we

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should be shooting for is for teams that look like

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the world we live in in terms of the diversity

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of them.

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And we're very, very far from that right now.

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It reminds me of panel. We saw which I can

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remember what it was, but it was like a South

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by Southwest or a social media world or something. And

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it was about the importance of gender equality when it

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comes to representation, pay, et cetera. And it was an

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all male panel. So it rightly got slate on social

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media where people decry and a panel about gender equality

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being in an all male one. I mean everyone was

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thinking, are you crazy? Well, why would you do this?

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There's a, there's a line in the book where the,

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the, the head of the venture capital from that Ren

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my main character works for it's called Simon Atherton and

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the book. And he's kind of that bro culture is

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very much, but he's a little older, right? He should

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know better for sure. You know, he's in his forties,

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he's got that whole bro culture thing. And there's a

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line in the book where he says, I am not

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sure that women have the balls to make good business

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decisions or, or maybe it's like, or maybe it's the

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same thing. Like it's a line in the book where

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he refers to balls. And I have a number of

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business meetings that I have been in over my career.

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I mean, like we're into the thousands we're having the

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balls is used as a way to say courage.

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Well, nobody stops and thinks about what does that mean

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to be other people in the room when you say

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it that way. And so I deliberately put that in

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the book and it's actually the way I wrote it

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in the book is almost word for what I had

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heard many times from someone who specifically it was in

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my head as someone who had worked with when I

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wrote that. And I'm just to say that, like I

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write under a pen name, like Lainey Kamran is my

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pen name. It's also how most people know me these

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days, but it was a little deliberate in the, I

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didn't want to end up one day. If I went

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back to my job in Silicon Valley, sitting across the

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interview table from a CEO where I'm supposed to be

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interviewing for their job as their best advisor, as their

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chief, chief strategist, a marketing officer. And they look at

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me across the table and go, so let me get

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this right, you right about people like me and your

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books.

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No you'd mentioned earlier that you and your husband are

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no digital nomads and what it can while travel in

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the world. And it sounds like you had some amazing

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adventures. All one that stood out for me when I

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read him and it was a certain, a hunting trip

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in Tanzania with Stoned Tribesmen. How did that come about?

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So funnily that was before he became digital nomads, M

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we actually took off. And this was part of what

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inspired us to do. The nomadic thing is back when

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we were both working in tech, I think about three

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years before we truly started becoming no meds, we took

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us six months sabbatical and my husband kept working the

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whole time for that six months. I actually took a

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sabbatical for my start-up because it was going to be

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too hard for me to do my kind of job

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remotely. And so we took six months and we did

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that differently. We actually moved around a lot. I think

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we covered like 20 plus countries in six months and

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we were working. So we were doing like two weeks

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at a time at that time. That's exactly how it

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adds up. It was like two weeks at a time

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for six months do end up with like 20 odd

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countries.

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And so one of the places we went to was

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Tanzania and we were on a Safari for two weeks.

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This was a time where we actually did have to

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stop working. Like you can't be honest with you in

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the middle of the Serengeti and assume you can get

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a wifi signal. So, but we weren't, even though you

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could look at it as a cell phone signal, I

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was amazed that the Safari driver's in the middle of

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the Serengeti had cell phone signal the entire time, they

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were all calling each other, asking where the animals were.

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And I saw some lions over here. Where are you

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worried? Oh my God, that guy has got some over

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here. I was amazed that they'd had cell phone signal

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out in the middle of Lake. Literally the planes have

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the Serengeti. There was nothing for a a hundred miles,

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but we had a cell phone signal. And what happened

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is we had our first off, what happened is we

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hired this local company to do our Safari.

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This is a good tip. If you're ever looking to

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go to a country that has a very expensive, so

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the fairies, so it's a very, it can be ridiculously

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expensive that it can be like 20 or $25,000 per

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person. Like they can be crazyville. But we also read

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all these forums online that said, if you book directly

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with a local company and you pay them directly, it'll

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be like 10 X cheaper than, than if you're going

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through a big international company. That's marketing marketing at marking

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up Up. So the first Skerry piece of that, his,

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we actually phoned this company that was recommended for the

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people on this travel for M and we wired them

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in the money. So we had no idea that when

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we arrived at the airport intense and you know, whether

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anyone was going to turn up, cause we were pretty

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dubious that like wiring money to this random accounted in

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Africa, and maybe someone is going to turn off the

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tickets on a Safari.

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And it was like, we are going to take the

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risk and we'll find out a worst case. We'll get

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to Tanzania. It won't be in the airport. No mobile

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com come get us and we'll come up with a

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plan. So we took the risk. They pick us up

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in this beautiful, well, not beautiful, but a big 10

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persons, a fairy truck and so forth like, Oh cool,

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we're gonna beat the rest of our Sperry. We'd go

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to the hotel the next morning we get up, we're

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ready to leave. And first off they laugh at us

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because they wanted to know where our bags were. And

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we were like, well, that little carry on suitcase, that's

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it that's our bag. And they couldn't believe we can.

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As far as with the carry on suitcase, we are

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traveling the world for six months. That's all we had.

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There was a carry on suitcase in a backpack with

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a laptop on it. Yeah. And they take us off.

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And as you know, and leaving, we say, so where

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are the rest of the people for this ten-person truck?

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And they Go, don't, you know, you booked a privat

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Safari for two weeks. So it was so cheap. We

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assumed that we would be people in the truck with

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us. But the cool thing that happened is because we

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were the only ones in the Safari for two weeks,

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our driver was this amazing guy. And then, well, who

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had done all these documentary's for the BBC. And you

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can only see so many animals before you were like,

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okay, that's very interesting more animals today. And he actually

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proposed that. We go and do this thing with the,

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the Tribesmen. He said the last tripe that is truly

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a Hunter gatherer, a nomadic tribe is in this area.

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I actually know them because I found this documentary about

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them through the BBC. Okay. And if we take them

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a bunch of pot, they will take you a Hunting

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for the day and think of it. But there, there

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are a true Hunter gatherer, a tribe. So they don't

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want electronics. They don't want money. They have no value

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and money, but they will take part because they are

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Stoned out of their minds. And so we go and

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they take us Hunting. But before the Hunting, there is

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like an hour ceremony where everybody is smoking and it

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goes on and on and on. And it was just

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a very unique experience. I'm sure I've got a Contact.

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Hi, because like, it was like we were sitting right

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there in the circle with them and they were smoking

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and smoking and smoking.

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And then after they're done smoking for an hour, they

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actually send off like the teenagers to go hunting. The

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guys who are like, ah, you can tell that's the

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tourist, take the teenagers. So like these teenage boys between

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like 18 and 17 take as a Hunting with Spears

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where they are tracking through the undergrowth, you know, you

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got to be quiet. Otherwise, if you crackle things, the

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animals here at As, and it was quite the experience

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going hunting with a bunch of stones, teenagers, M who

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also, and don't wear our clothes yet because they don't

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have much reason for clothes as a Hunter and gatherer

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in tribes either. So it's a bunch of Stoned naked.

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Teenager's in the middle of the forest in Tanzania. It

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was an awesome for us on a unique experience. And

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here's what I'm both interesting and a little sad, but

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I think sad is judgemental here.

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You know, the government and Tanzania wants to force the

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kids to go to school. So in these hunts, this

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is the last have the hunting and gathering tribes. There

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were five miles from the closest school and the government

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wants to force the kids to go to school for

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good reason. The government wants the kids to have a

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chance in life to have a choice. But if you

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think about it, once this generation of kids goes to

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school, there are not going back to being a Hunter

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gatherers, right? Like why would you go to school C

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all the other kids with cell phones, C all the

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people with jobs in the hoses, and then choose to

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go back and hang out with a spear all day.

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Like it's probably not going to happen. And so what

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a manual, all our driver was explaining it is you

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probably won't see this in 10, 15 years any more,

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it's not going to exist anymore.

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It's an interesting quandary, as you say, I mean, how

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involved do we, as the developed world get, and is

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there a negative connotation to that involvement when you share

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an example like these kids?

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Yeah. But on the other hand, like, are you going

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to deny those kids a chance, everything that all of

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the other kids get? Like, it's a hard one, right?

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That's not a, not an easy answer either way.

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And I'd mentioned earlier that you are sure started at

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the beginning of the year and has adapted to becoming

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more of a video and audio sho. So what are

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your goals for the future of the podcast and what

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do you remain on both mediums or maybe concentrate on

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one of the other or something different?

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It's a, it's a great question. I think I might

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need to ask people how much they like the video

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is versus the audio, because it's rapidly getting to the

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point that I'm getting more listens on the audio, that

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views on the video. And so, you know, it's funny

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because when I started it, I thought I'll give the

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Podcast of tri for a few months. If it doesn't

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take off, I'll just go back to doing just the

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video. It was because it's extra work and no, I'm

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like, Oh, the Podcast is actually kicking off or even

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faster than the video is. So I don't know. Its

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really interesting. I mean I'm, I'm recording on Streamyard so

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we're doing the video at the same time. I could

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just do a shorter video that is just a trailer

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for the Podcast. I think I needed to ask the

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people who are watching and listening and see what they

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think. I think they're going to keep going with it.

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One of the things that is really interesting as an

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author is they say that you should try and bring

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out books fast. And the reason for that is people

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forget about you, right? You bring out your first book.

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My debut came out last year. It is still getting

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a lot of good PR because it's winning all these

Speaker:

awards right now because of the words come out of

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the following year. But by the time of award season

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is over this year, it'll kind of right off into

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the sunset. It'll have, you know, a few sales, but

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it won't be a big buzz anymore. And so they

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say that you're supposed to bring out your next book

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and a year after your first one. Well, very few

Speaker:

authors actually churn out a book a year. It's hard.

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Right? And you can, if you put yourself in that

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kind of schedule, it it's stressful as well. 'cause, it's

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a huge work to do revise a book. I made

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my first book to be five years and it must

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have been revised 15 times As, and rewritten 15 times

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by the time I came up.

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And so I'm working on the second one right now,

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I'm really excited about it. And maybe it'll be in

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2020 too. So it'll have been, you know, a year

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and a half, two years from the first one. The

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really cool thing for the podcast for me is I

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can stay in front of readers, an offer them value.

Speaker:

That is not me coming out with a new book

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because readers read voraciously. They love lots of books, right?

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One of the biggest Fiction in the creative world is

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the concept of scarcity or that we're competing with each

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other. We are not competing with each other, right? My

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podcast is not compete with your podcast. People can listen

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to both. And the same thing in, in the writer

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world, my book does not compete with someone else's book.

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In fact is the opposite of that. If I recommend

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a book, someone who was looking for something to read

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is going to read both most likely.

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And so I love the idea that I'm going to

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have something that I can keep adding value to other

Speaker:

writers and readers, even when I don't have a book

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coming out of myself. And it's a way for me

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to kind of stay in their awareness, even though I

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don't have a book right now and it takes a

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long time to bring up with a coat. And so

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for me it seems like a really positive way. And

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its taking a little bit of the pressure off of

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me to bring out another book fast, which is nice

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because it is very stressful trying to like go through

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that entire process of writing the book and revising it.

Speaker:

And when is it ready? When is it actually ready

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to see the world? It's one of the biggest challenges

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was challenging.

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And, and for this new book, well y'all have to

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be used and a voice over artist again, to read

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it perhaps the same one as X a Strategy.

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It's a great question. My second book is a different

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age grip. My second, my main character and my second

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grip is in her twenties and she's actually a digital

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nomad. You know, all of Fiction is inspired from some

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version of real life. So my character in my second

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book is a digital nomad who is an adventure travel

Speaker:

writer. So imagine those people that you see those amazing

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photos on Instagram, like hanging off the cliff by their

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fingernails. And they were like hiking in there. So she's

Speaker:

that kind of a big adventure travels, sky diving, all

Speaker:

kinds of stuff. But she has a dark past that

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she is afraid is going to catch up with her.

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She's living under a new identity. And so I think

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I would have to have my narrator audition for that

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and see if she's able to do it because a

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20 year old character, 26 year old is pretty different

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to a 30 or 40 year old character.

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And I know she said she was not a fan

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of doing like ingenue characters. So I'd need to let

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her have a go and see if it's something that

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she gets inspired by as well, because you want, you

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also want the narrator to be really excited about narrating

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that character and feel like they can give it all

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their best to you.

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Wow. That's awesome. So Lainey, I really enjoyed chatting with

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you today for our listeners. We want to check out

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your podcast, buy your book or perhaps connect with you

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online. What is the best place to do that?

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Yeah, I'm going to give you a two Webb addresses.

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So to buy my book, as in my author persona,

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that's going to be my website, which is Lainey cameron.com,

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L a N N E Y. Cameron C a M

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M E R S O n.com. Good Scottish name there.

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Actually, my grandmother's made a name is how I picked

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my pen name. And if you want to check out

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the Podcast, it has it's own website. It's Best of

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women's Fiction dot com and you can find the links

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right there on the best of women's Fiction dot com,

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both to the video versions and its on Apple. It's

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on Google podcasts. It's on Stitcher, it's on M Spotify

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and caret for them, but all of the legs are

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right there on the website.

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And are we sure have to leave the links to

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all of these in the show notes. So if you

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are listening to your favorite podcast app, make sure to

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check the show notes as usual. So thanks to Lainey.

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It's been a real pleasure to speak with you today.

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I really appreciate you coming on the show.

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Okay. Thanks Danny. This has been so fun. I really

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appreciate that. You have invaded me. Thank you so much.

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You've been listening to Podcaster Stories. If you enjoyed this

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week's episode, head on over to Podcaster Stories dot com,

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where you can catch up in the previous episodes as

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well as sign up to the three newsletter. You can

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also find a show on your favorite podcast app, Apple

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podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music, Stitcher, and more until

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the next time take care, stay safe.

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About the Podcast

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Podcaster Stories
We listen to our favourite podcasts, but don’t always get to know the stories of the people behind these voices. Podcaster Stories looks to change that.

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About your host

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Danny Brown

Danny Brown is the host of One Minute Podcast Tips, the show that helps you be a better podcaster in just a minute a week. He's also hosted, and co-hosted, several other podcasts - if you called him a serial podcaster, you wouldn't be wrong! He's been in the podcasting space for over 10 years, and has the scars to prove it.

He's the Head of Podcaster Support and Experience at Captivate.fm, the world's only growth-oriented podcast hosting, distribution, analytics, and monetization platform for the serious indie podcaster.

He lives in beautiful Muskoka, Ontario, Canada with his wife and two kids, where he spends winters in front of a cozy fire and summers by the lake. Well, when he finds time away from podcasting, of course...